'Education means zip': Kellog's Lesley Salmon on solving tech's class problem
From flunking A-levels to Kellogg’s global CIO
“I never ever, ever, ever, ever look at education on a CV.”
That is a hard rule, although not a written one, that Lesley Salmon, global CIO at cereal giant Kellogg's, lives by when recruiting.
"[Education] means zip, absolutely nothing, as far as I'm concerned. If anybody looked at my education, they wouldn't have recruited me, wouldn't have taken a chance on me."
Proudly from a working-class background - her dad was a milkman - Lesley talks candidly about the fact that she "flunked" her A-levels and never went to university (her son is "first-generation uni").
Thirty years later, she leads IT at one of the world's largest CPG firms.
We've talked before about the importance of role models in opening the tech industry to under-represented groups. Lesley is passionate about the topic - not only for women, but people from every stratum of society.
"The more I can show my background, the more people might be open to not looking at education, per se."
Class act
The middle classes dominate tech (and, we have to admit, journalism): people from comfortable backgrounds, who have had access to opportunities and experiences not available to others. That's especially true at senior levels.
Actual numbers are difficult to find, but this 2021 report from the Sutton Trust charity estimates that 67% of UK tech workers come from "professional/managerial backgrounds," and 21% attended independent or fee-paying schools: well above the UK average of 5.8%.
Expanding the tech recruitment pool is an obvious way to address the skills shortage, and lowering the emphasis on education throws the doors open for new candidates.
Kellogg's Lovelace project involves working with schools and other facilities to bring more people into STEM: both young girls and people from disadvantaged backgrounds. In some cases, severely disadvantaged: some of the children the company works with are in the care system.
These kids have never even been on a tram from one side of Manchester to the other
"We're starting with underprivileged schools in underprivileged areas," says Lesley. "It's not easy... There are so many children from care systems that have got protection orders on them."
The team has also had to check its own preconceptions. Lesley describes a situation where they went to a partner school to talk about the opportunities for international travel. Afterwards a teacher told them, "These kids have never even been on a tram to get from one side of Manchester to the other."
"Even just opening the door and letting them see that, just because they live five miles away from a Kellogg office, doesn't mean that they can't work at Kellogg [was important]," says Lesley. "I think we've got to really, really pare back and think ‘What are the opportunities that we're trying to open to people from different socioeconomic backgrounds?' because it can be very, very overwhelming for them."
It is "massively about our own biases," she continues. "Some of the challenges [the children face] don't even come into your psyche, as a privileged person working at Kellogg."
Sometimes, it's also about other people's biases. Lesley says about half of a group of girls she once talked to put their hands up when asked if they had ever been told they wouldn't have a career - either a career "full stop," or one specifically in technology.
"A lot of that comes from home. So, getting to the girls is great, encouraging them and opening their minds, but how do we get to parents as well? Because parents need to be educated that the children can be whatever they want to be."
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'Education means zip': Kellog's Lesley Salmon on solving tech's class problem
From flunking A-levels to Kellogg’s global CIO
“I never ever, ever, ever, ever look at education on a CV.”
Patience and understanding
When talking about socio-economic challenges and unconscious bias, "I don't think there's anything bigger than kids that have grown up in care," says Lesley.
She admits she had had "no idea" of the challenges that children in the system face.
"Even things like starting work on time is a real challenge. The concept of having to go to work every single day and start at the right time, every single day, is a real wake-up call for some of the kids that have grown up in the care system.
"They've just never had that sort of structure in their life, they've not had any role models that they see day in, day out. So even just getting them understanding the very, very basics of what it means to be in the workplace is a starting point."
The other major challenge is in managing hopes and expectations, which can make even a casual turn of phrase difficult.
"Don't even make it sound like there's an opportunity if you're not 100% positive there's an opportunity, because these kids have had so many opportunities pulled from under them.
"If you say, 'We might have an opening or an opportunity or a job in in this area', and then you go back and say, ‘Oh no, sorry, there wasn't'...they take that very, very personally."
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'Education means zip': Kellog's Lesley Salmon on solving tech's class problem
From flunking A-levels to Kellogg’s global CIO
“I never ever, ever, ever, ever look at education on a CV.”
The recruitment quandary
We've seen that widening the recruitment pool can pay dividends, but there is a reason that recruiters already prefer some candidates over others.
As well as their education, middle class applicants get a leg up because they tend to have had more - or any - exposure to the workplace, plus shared experiences with existing IT professionals.
It is "really difficult" to give people from such different backgrounds - one of whom probably looks like a clear choice on paper - equal weighting when they both apply for the same role.
It is down to the interviewer to "bring out the best in the person you're interviewing," says Lesley. She recommends trying to "set them up for success," instead of trying to catch them out with "clever, fancy questions."
"Get stories out of the person you're interviewing that show grit and determination in something they've done in life. It doesn't have to be a fancy internship. They might have been a glass collector at their local pub, or they might have been the go-to person in a care home that always put the books away in the right order every night...
"It doesn't matter what the situation is that they describe. If they took a role of responsibility, or they showed grit and determination, they showed courage, they brought in a new idea - it doesn't matter what the situation. That is still relevant experience to bring to the workplace."
Of course, there's a certain level of skill and intellect needed for most roles, but Lesley's central tenet is that experience and education are not a reason to discount someone from the recruitment process.
Some IT departments already practice this, retraining employees who have shown their mettle in other departments. Kellogg's is one of them.
"I'll always, when I'm doing plant visits or whatever, try to make IT as open and accessible as possible for somebody that may have started life in one of our plants, as a factory line worker... I've had warehouse pickers work on my project and I think 'There's something about you. Come and properly work on my project and let's see', and they've ended up with a role in IT, in the past."
Breaking down barriers in recruitment is hard. It takes a lot of work and the IT leader who pushes for it must believe it's worth doing, implicitly.
There may be hard conversations with other departments, and even some difficult introspection when you consider your own preconceptions. But ultimately, it's only through work like this that DE&I moves from broad strokes, intangible promises to firm reality.
If solving social mobility was easy, we would have already done it.
Have you got experience with the subject of this story? We'd love to hear from you.
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